My experience is with the NYC private school community. I think it absolutely makes a difference. and probably the most important difference is assortative mating. Many private school kids end up marrying each other because of a shared background, shared friends, etc. It may be different in the UK or other parts of America.
would someone upper class marry someone on a scholarship in the same school as them ? maybe... but mostly not.. of course it makes 'a' difference, but we are usually not talking about a lower middle class kids parents being able to get their kids into the best private school - the Etons and Harrows of the UK which definetely make a difference and provide an amazing education, but the current hysteria in the UK is wether a handful of middle class kids will be less likely to be able to go to the private schools their parents can afford to get them into, which from talking to teachers and otehr people in education I understand are not always of top educational standards.
I'd agree that going to a mediocre private school is a bad investment. Also, in America the public schools in the wealthier suburbs tend to be excellent.
You bet. Just criticized our US public schools above, but schools in the well-off suburbs are quite good if my area (Western Washington) is any indicator.
I'm a US parent who has done highly regarded public and average private. It's not that the teachers or curriculum are better in private, but the kids get a better education because of smaller class sizes and the worst students, the ones who disrupt the classes for everyone, are for the most part not there, and if they show up it's not for long.
It's definitely true in Baltimore. My wife went to one of their $$$ schools and she's the only one of her friends from home who married outside the 20k private school family group
What about this current online phenomena where women without 2 dollars to rub together are expecting to meet "high value men" (they mean men who earn 6 figures and more), and get them to provide for them? These women are going into debt to take workshops and intensives with "femininity coaches" to learn how to attract such men. The fact that an extremely low percentage of men across the globe even make anywhere near 6 figures in US dollars, these women are undeterred.
These are the women who don't understand that a high-value man is one who has genuine integrity and is going to offer them true faithful love and honor the traditional marriage vow. Then again maybe those women aren't living deeply enough to think about that. And obviously you generally (though not always) need somebody from your own social class, not because people in one class are necessarily better than others but because you need to function in a shared existence.
"These are the women who don't understand that a high-value man is one who has genuine integrity and is going to offer them true faithful love and honor the traditional marriage vow."
--- Well, they want that too. But they really, really, really do not want the burden and pressure of having to work to earn money, even if they have a lucrative "hobby" or are internet "influencers" bringing in funds. They want a man who pays for everything while they are empowered to "rest in our femininity" and "do what we love".
With these #StayAtHomeGirlfriend and #KeptWife trends, you've got "influencers" out here convincing tons of women that rich men are everywhere and eager to be found by women like this, nevermind the socio-economic classes of these women. They completely reject the idea of "assortative mating". They say historically women have always "married up" and evolutionary science points to men always being providers to needy women.
I think the traditional model a good one, where the man earns the money and the woman raises the kids. However unless the man is making a big pile of money the couple has to accept the standard of living implied by a single income. This is fine to me because, though I think you need a decent income, the most important things cannot be bought. But I think people in our day are deceived into thinking higher incomes purchase happiness or significance.
"unless the man is making a big pile of money the couple has to accept the standard of living implied by a single income. This is fine to me"
--- How cute. Stay off of their websites, forums and podcasts because these women don't give a rat's ass what is "fine for you". They are laser focused on financially ambitious men who can provide them luxury lifestyles complete with maids, nannies and even cooks. Anything less and you are an unambitious, lazy, man-child who doesn't deserve a woman with a healthy self-esteem.
Who cares what these women think? (And I'm assuming your last paragraph isn't directed toward me personally). All people have to decide what they think matters most, and for me it's not the things money can buy. Obviously a woman interested in all that would not be a partner for me if I were searching for one, and vice versa.
One thing I noticed about private schools in Montreal (I did not attend one, but at McGill became friends with mostly former private school kids) was A) Yes that assortative mating, for sure, is a result and B) Many, if not most, of the males ended up heading into the finance sector. This is significant because A) the finance sector pays well, generally, and B) their assorted female mates appreciated the money the men could bring home, to keep them in the lifestyles with which they had usually been raised.
I have extremely mixed feelings about my English public school, and I do try to be clear sighted about the privileges it gave me. People often think that the advantages are in the Old Boys’ network, as if someone will arbitrarily give you a job or a promotion based solely on having been to the same school; nothing like that has ever happened to me or anyone I know, but the advantage I can say it gave me was learning how to network, particularly in a room of older men. My female friends and I have all noted that we’re quite good at this as adults and we can draw a line back to the experiences we had at school, with hindsight it is not comfortable to reflect on how that happened.
knowing people is definetely a big advanatage, I just think that it is not just the private school that confers that to you, the lottery often is already decided once you are born, whoever your parents are will make the most difference in your life prospects
Public schools in the US are called state schools in the UK. But it’s a bit more complicated: not all private schools are public schools, and some academically selective state schools are called grammar schools (although they only exist in certain counties).
A public school is a particular type of private school — very old and considered prestigious (mine was founded in the mid 1500s), and all boys until about the 1980s (some are still all boys, e.g. Eton). There are lots of private (that is, fee-paying) schools that aren’t in this category.
As an American I only understand what you’re talking about because of reading Paddington and Narnia books as a child and Harry Potter as an adult. British schooling is otherwise mystifying to us West Coastal Americans.
Out here parents move to the most expensive suburb they can afford so their free local public school (aka state school) is of high quality and has no lower class students. My wife and I don’t pretend we’re doing anything different though many of our peers still seem in denial about this. I routinely meet young couples who just happened to move here when their oldest kid turned 5 (aka school age around here).
I think you incorrectly blame the lure of private school for your father’s decision to overwork and not to pull you out. We do not blame the lure of sugar for rotting teeth but ourselves for succumbing to it. A healthy work life balance should be the thing focused on. I know first hand overwork happens regardless of your financial situation. If it wasn’t private school it’d be a bigger house, cars etc endlessly because the priority was off.
I’ve been in both types, State school is flawed will always put state interest above pupil interest, it doesn’t care for the students, only results that win elections. Control is not in parents hands. Hence you end up with systems like Korea and China where exams, obedience and working students to death are more important than actual broad education. And things are taught in a such a way to reduce dissent.
This is backwards, you should want everyone to get the same freedom of choice as you to explore every extra curricular option, every child to get a private education. I don’t get why no one has proposed a voucher system.
I think the voucher system is very difficult to design so that is not gamed? The religion lobby has used it to expand their influence, which is not so compatible with a secular state. Segregationists did the same. The only positive case I know is Holland.
My home base Germany on the other hand has very few private schools and no home schooling, while parents can basically decide which public school they are sending their kids to. Which leads to the similar outcome as vouchers: good parents send their kids to good schools, and lousy ones (of which there are many) don't give a damn. Is that compatible with giving every child a chance?
I think the state uses state school to game it’s own influence and I see that as even worse. People end up treating the state like a god and that just ends up in tyranny. Religion is a check on state power.
Germany’s system isn’t all that different to ours now, here we have a postcode lottery where the rich buy houses near the best state schools and it inflates house prices.And they get free education which is regressive.
Vouchers would at least allow people to use tutors instead.
I think parents who don’t give a damm are the problem there.
My friend and I go back and forth on this. We are both physicians and have pre-adolescent girls. We both grew up poor in America and went to public schools and did just fine. He sends his girls to a private school and I send mine to a public one. He wants to ensure his kids get the best education and in order to do so, works nonstop to pay for it. He and his wife are amazing people and all they want is to do what’s best for their children. I respect them for that. I tend to think there’s value in a public education, in that the demographics tend to be more diverse with different ethnic and socioeconomic ranges. For me, my girls will learn more about life interacting with every random kid more so than the more homogenous populations in a private school who may be diverse ethnically but less so economically. My friend wants his girls to get into Harvard. I could not care less about Harvard, I just want my girls to see the world in its totality and be able to appreciate all perspectives from whoever they meet down the road.
As the middle class in Western countries is picked clean and left to rot, middle class parents got two choices ya'll: either their kids claw their way into the ranks of the obscenely rich or become professional and make their living, servicing the obscenely rich.
Since admission to the rich is limited, as are, for that matter, trainee solicitor slots at Magic Circle firms or whatever, Claire and Dillingforth are gone need all the advantages they can get.
I am pondering the private school question myself, will need to make the choice in a few years. In Poland, private schools usually don't provide superior education, but offer a way to isolate your kid from poor dysfunctional kids at the cost of exposing them to kids of vain and shallow upper middle class parents mostly interested in status signalling.
Some of your descriptions of Greece remind me of what Polish lower middle class people do. As far as I understand, the message is that private school is not worth it in the UK. Do you think it's worth it in Greece (assuming the parents ca easily afford it)?
A moving piece as are most that tell one's story. The drama of an ordinary human existence.
Regarding private schools, I guess it's a choice. Agree if the strain is too much, don't do it. Provided your public school is adequate, i.e. safe, orderly and good enough academically. Here in America that's often not true, hence charter schools.
Again though the intertwining of autobiography, rendered thoughtfully, makes the piece.
My parents wanted to send me to a private school but didn’t in the end. For that I am grateful. I learnt more about how to live a real life in state school than I ever did at home, where my working class grandparents aspired to the middle classes and beyond for their offspring. Airs and graces that did not leave me with basic knowledge on how to live a regular life were not useful. I grew to detest the wealthy and the shallow pretentiousness around me.
I am however extremely grateful to have been able to go to university for free and I lament the horrendous prohibitive costs now put upon students. Higher education I perceive makes the real difference in peoples lives as that is where you learn critical thinking, rather than being stuffed full of pointless facts like at school - be that private or state funded.
I went to a typical public school in the 70’s/80’s and when I was 8 I knew my kids would go to private school; my experience was that horrendous and I came out dumber than I went in. I’ve been fortunate that my drive kept me out of trouble and I managed ok and also went to a good university. The landscape had not improved and my kids go to private school. They are specialized private schools but I learned why u struggled so much - undiagnosed twice exceptional (gifted plus AuDHD). Both my kids are the same. If those options were not available I would have homeschooled. To ignore the issues of what they needed to flourish would doom them to what I endured. I’m still not a supporter of public education as it is right now. Not because I disagree with it in principle- just the opposite - it’s the quality of the education isn’t there, especially if you’re an outlier. Maybe my perspective would be different if it was more neurotypical but I still see a lot of issues where kids just aren’t getting the support and life skills they need.
I am about as working class as it is probably possible to be. I don't have a problem with people sending their kids to private schools if they can afford it and hopefully, as you say, it should be one that is worth the extra expense. I left school at age 15, straight into work with no chance of college or university (is their a difference?). Everybody now seems to want their kids to go to university, especially if they could not afford a private school, but managed to attain a few A levels at the local comprehensive. I doubt that going to university is of much use to most working class kids, (or lower middle class) because just like private schools, their are good and bad universities, for which you will pay a small fortune and probably be in debt forever if you fail to get a high paid job as an artist, or woke freedom fighter. But, I do think that anyone with the money to invest in their childrens future, should be able to do so, even if it does turn out to be financially pointless or stupid, and their lovely children end up working at Tesco's helping people to use the self service section. I enjoy watching you on GBNews Stella, I like your accent and the crazy way you wave your arms around and even though you are such a lefty, you really do make a lot of sense.
In the end it is the amount of quality parental attention that matters for success and well-being of a child. I know a lot of successful people who are struggling in relationships or happy people who are struggling with their jobs. Both had either emotionally distant or overworked or ill parents without other close family members to substitute.
Is there a UK equivalent to the US’ Sunbelt or Midwest? My experience is that in the US there are lots of people who have gone to public universities, gotten high paying but not outrageously high paying jobs, and moved out of the high cost coastal metros to places with more affordable housing without sacrificing much career wise, and they are living happily in mansions in the ‘burbs. Such a path requires hard work and above average intelligence, but it doesn’t involve a red queen race or winning at some kind of tournament style of career advancement or tournament style admissions to a very highly selective university.
My experience is with the NYC private school community. I think it absolutely makes a difference. and probably the most important difference is assortative mating. Many private school kids end up marrying each other because of a shared background, shared friends, etc. It may be different in the UK or other parts of America.
would someone upper class marry someone on a scholarship in the same school as them ? maybe... but mostly not.. of course it makes 'a' difference, but we are usually not talking about a lower middle class kids parents being able to get their kids into the best private school - the Etons and Harrows of the UK which definetely make a difference and provide an amazing education, but the current hysteria in the UK is wether a handful of middle class kids will be less likely to be able to go to the private schools their parents can afford to get them into, which from talking to teachers and otehr people in education I understand are not always of top educational standards.
I'd agree that going to a mediocre private school is a bad investment. Also, in America the public schools in the wealthier suburbs tend to be excellent.
You bet. Just criticized our US public schools above, but schools in the well-off suburbs are quite good if my area (Western Washington) is any indicator.
I'm a US parent who has done highly regarded public and average private. It's not that the teachers or curriculum are better in private, but the kids get a better education because of smaller class sizes and the worst students, the ones who disrupt the classes for everyone, are for the most part not there, and if they show up it's not for long.
yep, it's the via negativa once again. Private schools often overperform... simply because they can rid themselves of problem children.
It's definitely true in Baltimore. My wife went to one of their $$$ schools and she's the only one of her friends from home who married outside the 20k private school family group
What about this current online phenomena where women without 2 dollars to rub together are expecting to meet "high value men" (they mean men who earn 6 figures and more), and get them to provide for them? These women are going into debt to take workshops and intensives with "femininity coaches" to learn how to attract such men. The fact that an extremely low percentage of men across the globe even make anywhere near 6 figures in US dollars, these women are undeterred.
These are the women who don't understand that a high-value man is one who has genuine integrity and is going to offer them true faithful love and honor the traditional marriage vow. Then again maybe those women aren't living deeply enough to think about that. And obviously you generally (though not always) need somebody from your own social class, not because people in one class are necessarily better than others but because you need to function in a shared existence.
"These are the women who don't understand that a high-value man is one who has genuine integrity and is going to offer them true faithful love and honor the traditional marriage vow."
--- Well, they want that too. But they really, really, really do not want the burden and pressure of having to work to earn money, even if they have a lucrative "hobby" or are internet "influencers" bringing in funds. They want a man who pays for everything while they are empowered to "rest in our femininity" and "do what we love".
With these #StayAtHomeGirlfriend and #KeptWife trends, you've got "influencers" out here convincing tons of women that rich men are everywhere and eager to be found by women like this, nevermind the socio-economic classes of these women. They completely reject the idea of "assortative mating". They say historically women have always "married up" and evolutionary science points to men always being providers to needy women.
I think the traditional model a good one, where the man earns the money and the woman raises the kids. However unless the man is making a big pile of money the couple has to accept the standard of living implied by a single income. This is fine to me because, though I think you need a decent income, the most important things cannot be bought. But I think people in our day are deceived into thinking higher incomes purchase happiness or significance.
"unless the man is making a big pile of money the couple has to accept the standard of living implied by a single income. This is fine to me"
--- How cute. Stay off of their websites, forums and podcasts because these women don't give a rat's ass what is "fine for you". They are laser focused on financially ambitious men who can provide them luxury lifestyles complete with maids, nannies and even cooks. Anything less and you are an unambitious, lazy, man-child who doesn't deserve a woman with a healthy self-esteem.
Who cares what these women think? (And I'm assuming your last paragraph isn't directed toward me personally). All people have to decide what they think matters most, and for me it's not the things money can buy. Obviously a woman interested in all that would not be a partner for me if I were searching for one, and vice versa.
One thing I noticed about private schools in Montreal (I did not attend one, but at McGill became friends with mostly former private school kids) was A) Yes that assortative mating, for sure, is a result and B) Many, if not most, of the males ended up heading into the finance sector. This is significant because A) the finance sector pays well, generally, and B) their assorted female mates appreciated the money the men could bring home, to keep them in the lifestyles with which they had usually been raised.
I have extremely mixed feelings about my English public school, and I do try to be clear sighted about the privileges it gave me. People often think that the advantages are in the Old Boys’ network, as if someone will arbitrarily give you a job or a promotion based solely on having been to the same school; nothing like that has ever happened to me or anyone I know, but the advantage I can say it gave me was learning how to network, particularly in a room of older men. My female friends and I have all noted that we’re quite good at this as adults and we can draw a line back to the experiences we had at school, with hindsight it is not comfortable to reflect on how that happened.
knowing people is definetely a big advanatage, I just think that it is not just the private school that confers that to you, the lottery often is already decided once you are born, whoever your parents are will make the most difference in your life prospects
Freakonomics made that point really well years back. Most of the advantages you'll give your kids are based on things you did before they were born.
If private schools are called public schools in UK, what are public schools called?
Public schools in the US are called state schools in the UK. But it’s a bit more complicated: not all private schools are public schools, and some academically selective state schools are called grammar schools (although they only exist in certain counties).
"not all private schools are public schools"
Please explain.
A public school is a particular type of private school — very old and considered prestigious (mine was founded in the mid 1500s), and all boys until about the 1980s (some are still all boys, e.g. Eton). There are lots of private (that is, fee-paying) schools that aren’t in this category.
As an American I only understand what you’re talking about because of reading Paddington and Narnia books as a child and Harry Potter as an adult. British schooling is otherwise mystifying to us West Coastal Americans.
Out here parents move to the most expensive suburb they can afford so their free local public school (aka state school) is of high quality and has no lower class students. My wife and I don’t pretend we’re doing anything different though many of our peers still seem in denial about this. I routinely meet young couples who just happened to move here when their oldest kid turned 5 (aka school age around here).
That also happens in the UK.
I think you incorrectly blame the lure of private school for your father’s decision to overwork and not to pull you out. We do not blame the lure of sugar for rotting teeth but ourselves for succumbing to it. A healthy work life balance should be the thing focused on. I know first hand overwork happens regardless of your financial situation. If it wasn’t private school it’d be a bigger house, cars etc endlessly because the priority was off.
I’ve been in both types, State school is flawed will always put state interest above pupil interest, it doesn’t care for the students, only results that win elections. Control is not in parents hands. Hence you end up with systems like Korea and China where exams, obedience and working students to death are more important than actual broad education. And things are taught in a such a way to reduce dissent.
This is backwards, you should want everyone to get the same freedom of choice as you to explore every extra curricular option, every child to get a private education. I don’t get why no one has proposed a voucher system.
I think the voucher system is very difficult to design so that is not gamed? The religion lobby has used it to expand their influence, which is not so compatible with a secular state. Segregationists did the same. The only positive case I know is Holland.
My home base Germany on the other hand has very few private schools and no home schooling, while parents can basically decide which public school they are sending their kids to. Which leads to the similar outcome as vouchers: good parents send their kids to good schools, and lousy ones (of which there are many) don't give a damn. Is that compatible with giving every child a chance?
I think the state uses state school to game it’s own influence and I see that as even worse. People end up treating the state like a god and that just ends up in tyranny. Religion is a check on state power.
Germany’s system isn’t all that different to ours now, here we have a postcode lottery where the rich buy houses near the best state schools and it inflates house prices.And they get free education which is regressive.
Vouchers would at least allow people to use tutors instead.
I think parents who don’t give a damm are the problem there.
My friend and I go back and forth on this. We are both physicians and have pre-adolescent girls. We both grew up poor in America and went to public schools and did just fine. He sends his girls to a private school and I send mine to a public one. He wants to ensure his kids get the best education and in order to do so, works nonstop to pay for it. He and his wife are amazing people and all they want is to do what’s best for their children. I respect them for that. I tend to think there’s value in a public education, in that the demographics tend to be more diverse with different ethnic and socioeconomic ranges. For me, my girls will learn more about life interacting with every random kid more so than the more homogenous populations in a private school who may be diverse ethnically but less so economically. My friend wants his girls to get into Harvard. I could not care less about Harvard, I just want my girls to see the world in its totality and be able to appreciate all perspectives from whoever they meet down the road.
As the middle class in Western countries is picked clean and left to rot, middle class parents got two choices ya'll: either their kids claw their way into the ranks of the obscenely rich or become professional and make their living, servicing the obscenely rich.
Since admission to the rich is limited, as are, for that matter, trainee solicitor slots at Magic Circle firms or whatever, Claire and Dillingforth are gone need all the advantages they can get.
I am pondering the private school question myself, will need to make the choice in a few years. In Poland, private schools usually don't provide superior education, but offer a way to isolate your kid from poor dysfunctional kids at the cost of exposing them to kids of vain and shallow upper middle class parents mostly interested in status signalling.
Some of your descriptions of Greece remind me of what Polish lower middle class people do. As far as I understand, the message is that private school is not worth it in the UK. Do you think it's worth it in Greece (assuming the parents ca easily afford it)?
A moving piece as are most that tell one's story. The drama of an ordinary human existence.
Regarding private schools, I guess it's a choice. Agree if the strain is too much, don't do it. Provided your public school is adequate, i.e. safe, orderly and good enough academically. Here in America that's often not true, hence charter schools.
Again though the intertwining of autobiography, rendered thoughtfully, makes the piece.
My parents wanted to send me to a private school but didn’t in the end. For that I am grateful. I learnt more about how to live a real life in state school than I ever did at home, where my working class grandparents aspired to the middle classes and beyond for their offspring. Airs and graces that did not leave me with basic knowledge on how to live a regular life were not useful. I grew to detest the wealthy and the shallow pretentiousness around me.
I am however extremely grateful to have been able to go to university for free and I lament the horrendous prohibitive costs now put upon students. Higher education I perceive makes the real difference in peoples lives as that is where you learn critical thinking, rather than being stuffed full of pointless facts like at school - be that private or state funded.
Then universities which are selective and charge fees should also pay vat,
Private school at least didn’t save you from misspelling despair.
I went to a typical public school in the 70’s/80’s and when I was 8 I knew my kids would go to private school; my experience was that horrendous and I came out dumber than I went in. I’ve been fortunate that my drive kept me out of trouble and I managed ok and also went to a good university. The landscape had not improved and my kids go to private school. They are specialized private schools but I learned why u struggled so much - undiagnosed twice exceptional (gifted plus AuDHD). Both my kids are the same. If those options were not available I would have homeschooled. To ignore the issues of what they needed to flourish would doom them to what I endured. I’m still not a supporter of public education as it is right now. Not because I disagree with it in principle- just the opposite - it’s the quality of the education isn’t there, especially if you’re an outlier. Maybe my perspective would be different if it was more neurotypical but I still see a lot of issues where kids just aren’t getting the support and life skills they need.
Your writing on private schools is interesting wrt Freddie deBoer's thoughts on education policy...
I am about as working class as it is probably possible to be. I don't have a problem with people sending their kids to private schools if they can afford it and hopefully, as you say, it should be one that is worth the extra expense. I left school at age 15, straight into work with no chance of college or university (is their a difference?). Everybody now seems to want their kids to go to university, especially if they could not afford a private school, but managed to attain a few A levels at the local comprehensive. I doubt that going to university is of much use to most working class kids, (or lower middle class) because just like private schools, their are good and bad universities, for which you will pay a small fortune and probably be in debt forever if you fail to get a high paid job as an artist, or woke freedom fighter. But, I do think that anyone with the money to invest in their childrens future, should be able to do so, even if it does turn out to be financially pointless or stupid, and their lovely children end up working at Tesco's helping people to use the self service section. I enjoy watching you on GBNews Stella, I like your accent and the crazy way you wave your arms around and even though you are such a lefty, you really do make a lot of sense.
In the end it is the amount of quality parental attention that matters for success and well-being of a child. I know a lot of successful people who are struggling in relationships or happy people who are struggling with their jobs. Both had either emotionally distant or overworked or ill parents without other close family members to substitute.
Is there a UK equivalent to the US’ Sunbelt or Midwest? My experience is that in the US there are lots of people who have gone to public universities, gotten high paying but not outrageously high paying jobs, and moved out of the high cost coastal metros to places with more affordable housing without sacrificing much career wise, and they are living happily in mansions in the ‘burbs. Such a path requires hard work and above average intelligence, but it doesn’t involve a red queen race or winning at some kind of tournament style of career advancement or tournament style admissions to a very highly selective university.