I find your description of the woes of beautiful young women spot-on. To the degree that I wonder why so many young women invest so much in making themselves beautiful. Every woman who succeeds in becoming a first-class beauty, will attract a number of men who are after a first-class beauty. Are those men really the most attractive long-term partners? Already when I was young I doubted that, and did not invest very much in my looks. That weeded out at least some of those men who would otherwise later discover that they abhorred my personality.
So nice to have you comment on my piece Tove :) I love your writing. That is exactly the feeling I often get, that I as a person leave many of the men I attract either completely indifferent or outright repulsed. Over the years I have put al lot of energy in my looks, some of it out of a desire to be accepted but a big part of it also out of an inner sense of narcissism and personal aesthetic- I am a visual person and I take intense pleasure in my own appearance ( it is what it is). This reality has made me want to dress down, cover up, and do myself up less when dating, even if on a daily basis I enjoy a certain standard of grooming. It has also made me take down any photos of me in a bikini or similar from my dating profile.
I can honestly say that I have never read such a long essay on the internet from start to finish with such a level of unfolding fascination. Your perspectives are fresh, clear, sharp, and well-developed and I have a great deal to mull over. (I am not your mother, just someone who stumbled across this page at the bottom of an internet rabbit hole.)
Very good essay. The insights into the female side of the loneliness divide I think are very important, as those on the male side tend to speak as though every woman is turning down men left and right. I can’t help but think that many men who can’t get a date are in part setting their sights way too high, not bothering unless they can get a woman well outside their league. Many women are great, possibly better overall than the top tier beauties, but languishing because men are too focused on failure and giving up on dating entirely.
From what I remember of my teens, both I and my male friends were way more picky about looks than now in middle age. There was also heavy social pressure not to associate with girls who were seen as being below a certain level of looks. That pickiness and the social pressure both seem to ease with age and maturity. The dating market for both males and females is pretty brutal for those at the bottom end of the spectrum of both sides of the gender divide when you are teenagers.
This was a fucking great piece. Hands down 👏. I enjoyed the shit out of it. Excellent writing. Also jealous u met Rob, gg. Whilst I share some interests with them, I talk to the unfuckable nerds because I find a lot of them charming. Probably because quite a few of them are Agreeable, and I'm Disagreeable. I feel more like I don't need to pretend to be soft to adhere to the average as much.
I didn't have the same bullying story you did. Picturing the brutal opposite gender bullying -.- but I have had that same realisation about being attractive and men. I have a form of desirous personality in the base sense of being open minded, hedonistic and friendly. Which fits in with most guys, "casual" fling ideal. I hoped it would ease with age but unfortunately I have only found the correlate to a man's wisdom with attractive women usually being marriage. They have realised it's a waste of energy and causes choice overload to spread yourself to the crowd of possibilities. Most older men I talked to in my youth, had more wisdom to see internal female qualities over subjective outer layers. It was like talking to two species of human, older married verses single men. They had just, "observed women" for longer, could tell the differing female qualities and knew what was gold or drama I guess. I found it fascinating how differently I was treated.
But yes, kudos on having seen both worlds, surviving, and ending up as being something wild; someone who can depthfully see two sides of a complex coin. Worth it? In knowing it was survivable? Or would you go back and give past you 6 slightly less shit years.
Thank you, means a lot :'-) xx No, I would still go through it because it means I can empathise and 'see' people who would otherwise be invisible in me. Also, to this day I benefit from being able to walk it and out of rooms where I may or may not be hated for who I am or what I believe in and remain unphased. My confidence is built on the evidence I give myself through my own actions, not on arbitrary external validation. Like you, I am disagreeable and I believe that being unpopular early on meant I can now continue being disagreeable without melting into a puddle.
Some male heterosexual unfuckable nerds like their female peers a lot, but are naturally blind to the social pressures to secure the absolutely most attractive for themselves—as well as to status dynamics in general—so they don’t see the point in everyone else’s behavior and focus more on qualities other than looks, even when young. Of course, then they have to learn slowly and painfully that status is a very real thing, that there was actually something everyone else knew and they didn’t, and that they’re pretty screwed for the rest of their lives if they haven’t managed to steer their nerdiness towards success by a certain age. And also that there’s no virtue in being deep when you’re oblivious to the motivation to be shallow.
Interesting post this. I'm often struck by how journalism on the sexual 'marketplace' almost never gets beyond notional stereotypes 'Men' do this and 'Women' get that etc etc. What usually gets entirely ignored is the huge INTRA-sexual differences between the experiences for the MORE and for the LESS desired of both sexes. It's as if most journalist's mental picture comprises only successful 'alpha' males and alluringly pretty women. The very different market place for 'beta' men and 'plain' women never seems to occur to them to even notice. https://grahamcunningham.substack.com/
Had to comment and say that this is one of the better pieces I've read.
I'm sure you're well aware of Katherine Dee's work about the varieties of femcel experience, and I really think these kinds of stories are incredibly important because they function as a sort of antidote to extreme ideological interpretations of gender-contingent suffering (I'm thinking of course of incel ideology here). The notion that women can't suffer to the same degree that men can is one of the most maximalist and socially erosive beliefs that a person can have, and I'd hope to see stories like yours rightfully receive more circulation in the zeitgeist.
You might be interested in my novel, INCEL, which takes apart the psychology of inceldom by way of its interior construction. If you like Houellebecq of B.E.E., it might suit your tastes.
Although this piece paints a decent picture of what women go through, I still struggle to agree that incels and femcels have equally tragic experience. Like mentioned in the article, you (or femcels for that matter) face rejections from men who are "changing the world" and are in probably top 0.01% , on the other hand, incels face rejections from 100% of the women population. Both are not the same.
Probably because I am a man, It is difficult for me to relate to women's experience but as far as dating and relationships are concerned, women do have plenty of options but they choose to get hurt by going after the very top men. Please give a chance to men who are your equals in terms of educational qualification, income, intelligence, physique etc. and 99% of your problems will be gone. That's what we need to teach women today.
I am pretty sure both the men and women who are being rejected claim that it's because the other sex is going after "tens" only... I am a married woman who dated 42 men, and I did almost no turning down. It was nearly always the guys. On the other hand, when we asked my father why he married my mother he said "she was the first one who said yes." Dating is rough and nobody has the monopoly.
I can feel the pain seeping from your body, onto your keyboard and into this piece. Every other paragraph of yours has me clasping at the mouth in shock and awe. I appreciate being given a window into your raw, unfiltered thoughts.
It's nice to see a self-reflective piece like this. It seems very genuine .
Although would any person ever choose to be ugly over the "struggles" attractive people have? The answer I assume is no.
I imagine many of the people you are trying to emphasize with would give you a hard time for this as their problems still persist. They aren't being whisked away to a new place where they are suddenly a hot commodity. The self-improvement "meme" only goes so far for the UHNs. Why wouldn't they just choose the path of least resistance and drop out of society? Where do you think you would be if you had to stay put in Greece?
Not to slight the author at all, whose writing was fantastic, but I agree with your point. It is much easier to be vulnerable once you are out of the tunnel. When you are in the tunnel, you are still depressed, ashamed, hopeless. There is no light, no escape. There is no reason for your suffering, no happy ending, no "this was all part of the plan". It's suffocating and terminal. I agree with everything the author wrote, but it does not give solace to those still in the tunnel. Once out of the tunnel, you are an outsider.
Oh, but there is. You see a light in the distance. It’s an oncoming train. Then you see the tracks you’ve been standing on all this time. That’s the plan—that’s what the tunnel was for, and it has nothing to do with you. *SQUISH*
There is a great deal of effort (and cost) that goes into being attractive. Even someone who is naturally gifted in appearances can make choices to be more or less attractive (see: stars without makeup pictures). I can say that some of us (myself included) consciously choose not to put excessive effort into creating a superficially attractive surface. One wants the men to come for the looks and stay for the personality. But the kind of men who are looking for a "10" will not stay for personality. So one should not aim to be a 10. If it helps my bona fides at all, I am married.
This is at once tragic and hilarious. Perhaps the best autobiographical snapshot I have ever read penned by a woman. So witty, perceptive, and intelligent. Being a mental health professional, I'm immediately struck by the fact that not once did you make use of the word "trauma" to describe your highschool experience. And I don't know if this was deliberate or merely coincidental (?)
I believe this piece contains a lot of insights (explicit and implicit) into how and how not to respond to potentially traumatic experiences post-childhood and in which the capacity for independent action has not been compromised.
I thoroughly enjoyed and was maximally stimulated reading this, not to mention laughing to point of tears at intervals. I'd sure be rereading this for reference and pure delight sake.
This is a very kind message. I have had this story in my mind for over a decade now and I don't think I ever used the word trauma to describe it to myself. My situation was a bit like water to fish when I was a teenager and it took me many years to realize that to other people it sounds very shocking. It means a lot that people like yourself, whom I've never met, engage with it now and in such a positive way. Thank you.
My stock likewise went up (temporarily) when I moved north and grew my hair out. People thought my Southern accent was unusual, or interesting, and mistook me for a musician: "Dude, what do you play?"
Hot damn, that was brilliant! Ty for writing so honestly.
Although yours was more extreme than mine, to some extent we share a similar background. I had some really bad experiences with girls in high school, public shaming in a graduating class of ~85 people where everyone knew everyone. I had zero success with women as an early teenager or any success my freshmen or sophomore year of college.
I was very close to falling off the edge, giving up and I probably would have ended up as an unfuckable hate nerd had I not put forth a massive effort to confront my fears, overcome my anxieties and figure out how to talk to women.
In the end I did succeed and I've had some great relationships and lots of fun times, but always coming from that background of knowing what it's like to be an abject failure. And crucially, since nothing came naturally to me, I had to spend an inordinate amount of time learning about a woman's perspective, female psychology, etc. And so I understand (well, as best a guy can understand) all the points you made in your article. I can sympathize with men who feel bitter because in their reality women control the sex and can get attention/get laid at will. While also acutely understanding why it's not nearly that simple from a woman's perspective.
So I'll leave it at that. I think I'll be subscribing to your substack, I really liked this.
I find your description of the woes of beautiful young women spot-on. To the degree that I wonder why so many young women invest so much in making themselves beautiful. Every woman who succeeds in becoming a first-class beauty, will attract a number of men who are after a first-class beauty. Are those men really the most attractive long-term partners? Already when I was young I doubted that, and did not invest very much in my looks. That weeded out at least some of those men who would otherwise later discover that they abhorred my personality.
So nice to have you comment on my piece Tove :) I love your writing. That is exactly the feeling I often get, that I as a person leave many of the men I attract either completely indifferent or outright repulsed. Over the years I have put al lot of energy in my looks, some of it out of a desire to be accepted but a big part of it also out of an inner sense of narcissism and personal aesthetic- I am a visual person and I take intense pleasure in my own appearance ( it is what it is). This reality has made me want to dress down, cover up, and do myself up less when dating, even if on a daily basis I enjoy a certain standard of grooming. It has also made me take down any photos of me in a bikini or similar from my dating profile.
I can honestly say that I have never read such a long essay on the internet from start to finish with such a level of unfolding fascination. Your perspectives are fresh, clear, sharp, and well-developed and I have a great deal to mull over. (I am not your mother, just someone who stumbled across this page at the bottom of an internet rabbit hole.)
Thank you 🥲🥲🥲
Very good essay. The insights into the female side of the loneliness divide I think are very important, as those on the male side tend to speak as though every woman is turning down men left and right. I can’t help but think that many men who can’t get a date are in part setting their sights way too high, not bothering unless they can get a woman well outside their league. Many women are great, possibly better overall than the top tier beauties, but languishing because men are too focused on failure and giving up on dating entirely.
And a lot of these young men, the so called incels, have an ideal of womanhood that's shaped almost entirely by porn.
From what I remember of my teens, both I and my male friends were way more picky about looks than now in middle age. There was also heavy social pressure not to associate with girls who were seen as being below a certain level of looks. That pickiness and the social pressure both seem to ease with age and maturity. The dating market for both males and females is pretty brutal for those at the bottom end of the spectrum of both sides of the gender divide when you are teenagers.
This was a fucking great piece. Hands down 👏. I enjoyed the shit out of it. Excellent writing. Also jealous u met Rob, gg. Whilst I share some interests with them, I talk to the unfuckable nerds because I find a lot of them charming. Probably because quite a few of them are Agreeable, and I'm Disagreeable. I feel more like I don't need to pretend to be soft to adhere to the average as much.
I didn't have the same bullying story you did. Picturing the brutal opposite gender bullying -.- but I have had that same realisation about being attractive and men. I have a form of desirous personality in the base sense of being open minded, hedonistic and friendly. Which fits in with most guys, "casual" fling ideal. I hoped it would ease with age but unfortunately I have only found the correlate to a man's wisdom with attractive women usually being marriage. They have realised it's a waste of energy and causes choice overload to spread yourself to the crowd of possibilities. Most older men I talked to in my youth, had more wisdom to see internal female qualities over subjective outer layers. It was like talking to two species of human, older married verses single men. They had just, "observed women" for longer, could tell the differing female qualities and knew what was gold or drama I guess. I found it fascinating how differently I was treated.
But yes, kudos on having seen both worlds, surviving, and ending up as being something wild; someone who can depthfully see two sides of a complex coin. Worth it? In knowing it was survivable? Or would you go back and give past you 6 slightly less shit years.
Thank you, means a lot :'-) xx No, I would still go through it because it means I can empathise and 'see' people who would otherwise be invisible in me. Also, to this day I benefit from being able to walk it and out of rooms where I may or may not be hated for who I am or what I believe in and remain unphased. My confidence is built on the evidence I give myself through my own actions, not on arbitrary external validation. Like you, I am disagreeable and I believe that being unpopular early on meant I can now continue being disagreeable without melting into a puddle.
Being through hell, for whatever reason, helps you see who is still stuck in it.
Lets you see without the societal confines of sight, the irrational fear of catching deviancy. Thanks for replying 😊.
Some male heterosexual unfuckable nerds like their female peers a lot, but are naturally blind to the social pressures to secure the absolutely most attractive for themselves—as well as to status dynamics in general—so they don’t see the point in everyone else’s behavior and focus more on qualities other than looks, even when young. Of course, then they have to learn slowly and painfully that status is a very real thing, that there was actually something everyone else knew and they didn’t, and that they’re pretty screwed for the rest of their lives if they haven’t managed to steer their nerdiness towards success by a certain age. And also that there’s no virtue in being deep when you’re oblivious to the motivation to be shallow.
Interesting post this. I'm often struck by how journalism on the sexual 'marketplace' almost never gets beyond notional stereotypes 'Men' do this and 'Women' get that etc etc. What usually gets entirely ignored is the huge INTRA-sexual differences between the experiences for the MORE and for the LESS desired of both sexes. It's as if most journalist's mental picture comprises only successful 'alpha' males and alluringly pretty women. The very different market place for 'beta' men and 'plain' women never seems to occur to them to even notice. https://grahamcunningham.substack.com/
Had to comment and say that this is one of the better pieces I've read.
I'm sure you're well aware of Katherine Dee's work about the varieties of femcel experience, and I really think these kinds of stories are incredibly important because they function as a sort of antidote to extreme ideological interpretations of gender-contingent suffering (I'm thinking of course of incel ideology here). The notion that women can't suffer to the same degree that men can is one of the most maximalist and socially erosive beliefs that a person can have, and I'd hope to see stories like yours rightfully receive more circulation in the zeitgeist.
You might be interested in my novel, INCEL, which takes apart the psychology of inceldom by way of its interior construction. If you like Houellebecq of B.E.E., it might suit your tastes.
Although this piece paints a decent picture of what women go through, I still struggle to agree that incels and femcels have equally tragic experience. Like mentioned in the article, you (or femcels for that matter) face rejections from men who are "changing the world" and are in probably top 0.01% , on the other hand, incels face rejections from 100% of the women population. Both are not the same.
Probably because I am a man, It is difficult for me to relate to women's experience but as far as dating and relationships are concerned, women do have plenty of options but they choose to get hurt by going after the very top men. Please give a chance to men who are your equals in terms of educational qualification, income, intelligence, physique etc. and 99% of your problems will be gone. That's what we need to teach women today.
I am pretty sure both the men and women who are being rejected claim that it's because the other sex is going after "tens" only... I am a married woman who dated 42 men, and I did almost no turning down. It was nearly always the guys. On the other hand, when we asked my father why he married my mother he said "she was the first one who said yes." Dating is rough and nobody has the monopoly.
Your writing is high-key 🔥🔥🔥
I can feel the pain seeping from your body, onto your keyboard and into this piece. Every other paragraph of yours has me clasping at the mouth in shock and awe. I appreciate being given a window into your raw, unfiltered thoughts.
ISH is TOO REAL!!!
Thanks Timothy ☺️
Your writing is as good as a Nora Ephron, a la Heartburn. Though drier and obviously a younger woman's perspective.
That’s high praise, thank you, I love Nora Ephron
It's nice to see a self-reflective piece like this. It seems very genuine .
Although would any person ever choose to be ugly over the "struggles" attractive people have? The answer I assume is no.
I imagine many of the people you are trying to emphasize with would give you a hard time for this as their problems still persist. They aren't being whisked away to a new place where they are suddenly a hot commodity. The self-improvement "meme" only goes so far for the UHNs. Why wouldn't they just choose the path of least resistance and drop out of society? Where do you think you would be if you had to stay put in Greece?
Not to slight the author at all, whose writing was fantastic, but I agree with your point. It is much easier to be vulnerable once you are out of the tunnel. When you are in the tunnel, you are still depressed, ashamed, hopeless. There is no light, no escape. There is no reason for your suffering, no happy ending, no "this was all part of the plan". It's suffocating and terminal. I agree with everything the author wrote, but it does not give solace to those still in the tunnel. Once out of the tunnel, you are an outsider.
> no "this was all part of the plan".
Oh, but there is. You see a light in the distance. It’s an oncoming train. Then you see the tracks you’ve been standing on all this time. That’s the plan—that’s what the tunnel was for, and it has nothing to do with you. *SQUISH*
There is a great deal of effort (and cost) that goes into being attractive. Even someone who is naturally gifted in appearances can make choices to be more or less attractive (see: stars without makeup pictures). I can say that some of us (myself included) consciously choose not to put excessive effort into creating a superficially attractive surface. One wants the men to come for the looks and stay for the personality. But the kind of men who are looking for a "10" will not stay for personality. So one should not aim to be a 10. If it helps my bona fides at all, I am married.
This is at once tragic and hilarious. Perhaps the best autobiographical snapshot I have ever read penned by a woman. So witty, perceptive, and intelligent. Being a mental health professional, I'm immediately struck by the fact that not once did you make use of the word "trauma" to describe your highschool experience. And I don't know if this was deliberate or merely coincidental (?)
I believe this piece contains a lot of insights (explicit and implicit) into how and how not to respond to potentially traumatic experiences post-childhood and in which the capacity for independent action has not been compromised.
I thoroughly enjoyed and was maximally stimulated reading this, not to mention laughing to point of tears at intervals. I'd sure be rereading this for reference and pure delight sake.
This is a very kind message. I have had this story in my mind for over a decade now and I don't think I ever used the word trauma to describe it to myself. My situation was a bit like water to fish when I was a teenager and it took me many years to realize that to other people it sounds very shocking. It means a lot that people like yourself, whom I've never met, engage with it now and in such a positive way. Thank you.
My stock likewise went up (temporarily) when I moved north and grew my hair out. People thought my Southern accent was unusual, or interesting, and mistook me for a musician: "Dude, what do you play?"
"Uh, Dungeons & Dragons?"
Best response :)
Hot damn, that was brilliant! Ty for writing so honestly.
Although yours was more extreme than mine, to some extent we share a similar background. I had some really bad experiences with girls in high school, public shaming in a graduating class of ~85 people where everyone knew everyone. I had zero success with women as an early teenager or any success my freshmen or sophomore year of college.
I was very close to falling off the edge, giving up and I probably would have ended up as an unfuckable hate nerd had I not put forth a massive effort to confront my fears, overcome my anxieties and figure out how to talk to women.
In the end I did succeed and I've had some great relationships and lots of fun times, but always coming from that background of knowing what it's like to be an abject failure. And crucially, since nothing came naturally to me, I had to spend an inordinate amount of time learning about a woman's perspective, female psychology, etc. And so I understand (well, as best a guy can understand) all the points you made in your article. I can sympathize with men who feel bitter because in their reality women control the sex and can get attention/get laid at will. While also acutely understanding why it's not nearly that simple from a woman's perspective.
So I'll leave it at that. I think I'll be subscribing to your substack, I really liked this.
Brilliant essay. Impressively honest and introspective.
Beautiful post, as a 17 years old unfuckable hate nerd, is good to know I'm not alone
I promise you there is so much potential in your future, youth is a luxury, possibilities are infinite. Hang in there my friend :-)